From a member I went to the same ward with in my younger days....
Well, I’ve got quite a doozy of typing going on. I had to put it into a separate document and save it every now and then, so that babies could accidentally bump the plug in. I will all your words in ( ), so that it separate...s the speakers. I tried bold and colors, but it wouldn't copy over. That's kinda lame. It’s nice to get to have these little...no, LONG chats.
Ok, so, here we go. And remember, I am not trying to be mean, just explaining my opinion. You can have yours and I can have mine. That is just fine.
(Packer ….. definitely follows the WYSIWYG ) ...I don’t know what that stands for, so if you’d enlighten me, that would be nice.
I went and listened to Boyd K. Packers talk just the other day, so I could review it. I was confused that people were calling it a hate speech at all. I really liked the talk and felt it was mainly dealing with how to get out of the trap of pornography. It lightly touched on same-sex marriage. In my opinion, I agree that just because something is voted on, does not make it right. I liked the comparison to gravity. If we vote and pass a law saying there is no gravity, it does not make it true or right.
--(pamphlet "To Young Men Only" (originally from the priesthood General Session Oct. 2 1976) that violence toward one who is "same gender attracted" is acceptable. It seems like a blanket approval of hatred through violence to me. )
So, I was interested in what was said there, so I checked it out. Here is what I got:
“It was intended that we use this power only with our partner in marriage. I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord.
There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."
"Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.
"But I floored him," he said.
After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.”
-from the “To Young Men Only” info I found online.
In my summary of this tiny clip out of “To Young Men Only”, I do not see it as a call to everyone to be violent toward others, but a call to protect yourself from anyone trying to violate you. He does not say, “If you find out that someone is same-sex, you should beat them to a bloody pulp!” He is talking about a young man protecting himself from someone who is was trying to violate him. Though the story is a bit vague if he was just told, or actively coming on to him. It sounds to me that the young man was so shocked, it came out as a punch. Also, the young man felt bad about his blow, and was repenting of it. If a man was trying to rape me, I would not feel bad about hitting him to the ground. I would actually hope I could do even more to protect myself. Taser, pepper spray, and then get AWAY. You must protect yourself… that is the main message.
I also don't believe homosexuality is a trap of Satan. If this were true Jesus would have been "curing" people of homosexuality too. )
I do not believe it is a sickness, it is a sin. Jesus provided the “cure” which is available to all.... It is the gift of repentance. The reason why I see same sex attraction as a trap from Satan is that, first off, same sex marriage does not follow one of the first commandments that was ever commanded. Adam and Eve were told to multiply and replenish the earth. It was not said, “Do whatever you feel is drawing you in, and it’s all fine with me.” Same-sex attraction does not lead to families, and bringing God’s children to earth, and unity between husband and wife. All passions and desires are to be kept within the bounds the Lord has set. I believe this.
I am sorry, again if this is offensive to you or others. I am not trying to offend. What I wonder is; what is it that you and others want? It seems you are angry because of the Church is saying that it is “evil and wrong”. Do you want them to say there is nothing wrong, and this is pure righteousness? If so, I really don’t think the Lord is going to do anything different then he has ever done for those who choose to walk their own paths. He does the same as he has always done. Offer the plan of Redemption and the power of repentance and forgiveness. You mentioned being married. What I wonder, is why did you marry when you obviously didn’t love that person? I would rather be single, than married to someone I don’t love.
I want you to be happy Sean. But it is not up to me, or anyone else. It is up to the individual… kind of like the story of the 10 virgins, who were all followers of Christ and invited to the wedding. We need to find it for ourselves. It seems from your posts that you are full of anger and frustration at others. Why? Is it because you feel attacked? I am glad that we all have free agency and get to choose our own path in life. If you do not agree with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, then walk away, and don’t keep looking back and mocking or fighting. Religion is a choice, and you do not have to follow what the Church teaches.
Oh, you mention about the church’s support of Prop. 8. Or; marriage is defined as between one man and one woman. I think it was here in AZ too. I helped make calls to get opinions of this. I know about getting a legal marriage, because I followed it and paid $80 for a piece of paper and number...but I think marriage is more of a religious thing. An agreement between Husband and Wife and God. I wonder why the state even got into this? Is it for $? Back in the day, all a couple had to do was get whatever paster/preacher/sea captain they chose...that is for European nations, anyway. I guess they couldn’t choose a captain, there is only one on a ship. :) Anyway, about the religious thing, I may be wrong here, and I haven’t thought about it enough to form a complete opinion. But, I think marriage should only be a religious thing, and the state/govt should stay out of it. Separation of church and state. Because of this, the Church of Jesus Christ did not want it to be made law that the church had to accept same-sex marriages, and thus be breaking law by not allowing same sex couples into the temples of the Lord. This is all my opinion and thoughts here. So, I see the church/s making such a stand against this making same-sex marriage a law, because it is completely contrary to the teachings of the Lord. Thus, forcing what we believe to be “wrong and evil” upon us (You mention that you would indeed protest a law that forces you to believe something you don't agree with. With that same sentiment I find it shocking that members are puzzled why people would protest in front of temples and meetinghouse...s.)
What I find myself asking is, “Why are these people wasting their time and energy and life in protesting against what others believe, when they can believe as they want. No one has to join a church.
(To say nothing about how the church still comes to my home to endorse itself.)
Are you talking about missionaries? I am sure that if they knew you didn’t want them to knock on your door, they wouldn’t. Maybe you should put a sign up? Missionaries are not telepathic. :) That would be really cool.
(I guess we'll have to disagree about the division in the church.)
I guess we will agree to disagree. I was looking at the www.evergreeninternational.org site and noticed a quote from Hinckley...which I already felt would be so. None of the leaders (prophets/apostles) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are pro same-sex because it does not follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But...I do agree that there is a LOT of reading of all kinds about all different topics. It’s nice to have so much info...but a bit overwhelming at times. A friend of mine, who was of a different church said that my church had too much info, and she only wanted a little pamphlet worth of reading. Lol.
(The gay youth homeless rate in Utah, where some believe the church is most true ) -the church is not more true in any one area than it is in another area of the world. Did you know that there are more members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints outside the USA, than in? ( is among the highest in the country.)
I wonder, what do they consider as “youth”. If one of my children was 18, and living at home and wanting to do things in my home that I didn’t agree with, then I would say something to the effect of, “I love you, but I don’t allow this in my home. You can move out if you want, or you can keep the house rules.” ...That would include drugs, alcohol, R rated movies, or porn...or whatever else I don’t want in my house and yes, even chocolate chip cookies if I am on a diet. Would I still love my child? YESSSS!!!!!!!! If my child was younger than 18, they could live at home, but anything they do contrary to house rules would have to not be in the house or on the property. I cannot follow them around everywhere. That is not good parenting. I need to teach them, and then let them choose for themselves. That is exactly what the Lord is trying to do for us. And boy, it is hard to see loved ones not following the Lord. I love them so soooo much. I love them, but I don’t agree with their choices. And that is ok.
(Really the discussion could be about how (p)assionate some leaders and members are instead of debating whether or not gay is right or wrong or a choice or inborn. ) Wrong choice and not inborn. Maybe “The Family: The A Proclamation to the World” did not say it cut and dry enough.
There is a LOT of reading about love and support and repentance. More than there is about same-sex marriage being wrong.
Well, I think that’s about it for now. Again, you do not have to agree with me, or the different churches that don’t agree with your choices. You do not have to believe the same as other people. None of this is meant to be said in a mean way or belittling to you or others.
Thanks for all your thoughts too Sean, and God’s peace for you too.
Over and out. Oh, if you don’t want this on your FB wall, you can always delete it from the side options. I’ll still consider you a friend.